Charles the Hammer: BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS NOT SALVIFIC.
Matt: BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS SALVIFIC.
A live time debate (across I.R.C.) between me and "Catholic" Ultraditionalist Feeneyite apologist Charles the Hammer, on the legitimacy of baptism of desire ( I.E. "IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE SALVIFIC?"). This is, to the best of our knowledge the first such highly organized, highly formatted and moderated live time debate across I.R.C.
DATE: JULY 25,1999
SCHEDULE TIME TO START: 8:30 P.M. EASTERN STANDARD TIME
SCHEDULED TIME TO END: 11:00 P.M. EASTERN STANDARD TIME
(IF BOTH SIDE AGREE THAT THEY NEED MORE TIME, THEN THE DEBATE END TIME WILL BE EXTENDED TO 11:30 P.M. EASTERN STANDARD TIME )
PLACE: I.R.C. (Intenet Relay Chat) Channel #CatholicDebate
DEFINITION of BAPTISM OF DESIRE: In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love, and the simultaneous desire for baptism.(Catholic Encyclopedia, 1976, p. 159)
DEFINITION OF HERESY: Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2089: The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.
The following Ten points were part of a pre-agreement between Charles C. Hammer and Matt:1618 designed to help keep the debate honest and structured. The true goal of this debate is to determine the Truth and the teaching of Christ's one true church:
1. Truth Matters
2. Truth can be known by humans.
3. Nothing can be both true and false at the same time (law of identity).
4. Any contradictions must be resolved before continuing.
5. We shall deal with one subject at a time.
6. Both sides must promise to tell the Truth at all times.
7. Both sides must promise to define any terms used, when asked to do so by either the opposition, or the moderator.
8. Both sides must answer all direct questions with a simple "yes" or "no" answer (the answer "I don't know is perfectly acceptable), when the question calls for this type of direct answer.
9. Both sides must agree that some citations bear more weight then others.
10.Both sides must agree to refrain from linking to outside web articles.
Both debaters have agreed if either side breaks any of the above points, the offending debater will receive three warnings after the third one in the offending debator will automatically be disqualified from the debate and lose by forfeit, though warned thrice by the moderator [basically, three strikes and you're out]. There will be an unbiased moderator; basically the format we have chosen will be pretty much the same as in the Presidential debates. Here is the format:
Each debater will be permitted to ask a question, whereupon the opposition will respond and answer that question (whether sufficiently, or not, depends upon the decision of the moderator), having two minutes in which to do so (the length of time taken to respond, is debatable, and may be changed by the moderator during the debate, pending the agreement of both parties). After the questioner, shall be permitted to ask one follow-up question. Whereupon, the opposition may then ask it's own question followed by a follow-up question.Then the entire cycle repeats itself. Both debators have the option of withdrawing their question, prior to the answer being given. Once the answer is given, the question stands.
If at any point during this debate either debater should require time to research a citation, he can inform the moderator. Should the moderator consider the request valid, the moderator can either alot more time (than the allotted two minutes) , or the moderator can (if the case is extreme and legitimate) postpone the debate until the following weekend (or whichever time the moderator chooses and Pending the agreement of the two concerned parties). This is a structured discussion between two veteran debaters, there will be no name calling or slander allowed. The goal of this debate is to discover the truth and spread the doctrines of Christ's one true Church. With our Lady of Victory as the patron saint of this debate I'm sure we shall meet our goal.
The format We have chosen and the two debaters (Charles Hammer and Matt 16:18) have agreed-upon is very similar to that of the one used in the Presidential debates. This format is also along the lines of the one used by professional Catholic Apologists, and by Catholic theologians when determining the Truth. The only major difference is that instead of expensive airline tickets and hotel bills necessary for a face to face debate, both debaters will be in the comfort of their own homes discussing the topic via modem on I.R.C.This is really a benefit and by no means a dilemma to the debator it enables them to relax in familiar and comfortable surroundings. This benefit is also extended also to YOU the viewers (ALL ARE WELCOME), YOU ALSO can sit back in and ENJOY the debate AND LEARN about OUR HOLY CATHOLIC FAITH in the comfort of your own livingroom. This format is built upon the foundation of honest discussion.
Within a reasonable period after the debate, the full debate will be posted at Matt's Ultra-Traditionalist Page.
Click Here for the Debate: Matt Vs. Hammer